ILP rules and the permaban of Lys?

[AutSider]

Carleas, this is what you posted here:

http://knowthyself.forumotion.net/t1512 ... antagonism

Satyr isn't single out because he rises above the dullness and gets his head chopped off. As you point out, he wasn't banned for his ideas. His ideas were "workaday". He's singled out because he's a chronic disruption. He creates an atmosphere in which ideas can't have their day. That's why any member is banned, and that's why Satyr is no longer welcome at ILP.

And let me be clear about that: Satyr isn't welcome at ILP. That there are conditions where an account operated by Satyr could be maintained and could successfully participate doesn't make that statement hypocritical. Satyr, the human being behind the hundred masks, has been permanently banned from the site.

As for posting someone else's thoughts, I've tried to explain over at ILP, but the short answer is that acting at ILP as an agent of a banned member is a warnable offense. That will include posting just about anything written by the banned user for the purpose of posting it on ILP.

In the first quote, you claim that a person's ideas is not what gets them banned, but their disruptive way of interacting with other members.
If Satyr's ideas didn't get him banned in the first place, why would Lys posting Satyr's ideas with Satyr's permission get her banned?

If Satyr's participation is the thing which is undesirable, and not his ideas, why would posting his ideas by another member, with Satyr's permission, not be allowed?
That is a very awkward line of reasoning, either it is unintentionally so, a mistake, or you are simply willing to go to absurd lengths to try and justify the censoring of somebody's ideas. But I do not think this is so, because if I did, I wouldn't have made this thread. I do still believe, or at least hope, that your motives are sincere and that you are willing to make a just, objective judgment on the issue.

If Lys posted Satyr's personal responses and insults to other members, I could understand the decision. But, from what I've observed, Lys posted Satyr's opinions and ideas about general issues and the subject at hand, NOT his insults directed at specific members.

And I don't think there are any rational grounds to assume that Lys and Satyr are the same personalities, especially since you can check the IP addresses and easily disprove that for yourselves.
The decision seems to have been made by Only_Humean, who appears to have a personal grudge against the KT members. I ask Carleas to reconsider its validity in light of the posts he himself made.

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

Man says an atmosphere in which ideas can't have their day is bad.

Man bans user, and censors another user from sharing their ideas.

That's irony.

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

Never was a fan of internet mods, period.

It feels like kindergarten.

Why should one be ruled by lesser men?

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

Satyr's system is more fair, actually.

He doesnt censor ideas, he just relegates users to the dungeon.

The extreme opposite are the Christian boards, who bans anybody they dont like and erases their posts.

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

mouse problems

[phoneutria]

She's a bit of a spammer.

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

She's a bit of a spammer.

I had mouse problems. It involved duct tape.

[phoneutria]

Lyssa, poopkins, not you.

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

It involved duct tape mostly on my boobs.

[iambiguous]

Admittedly, I'm not really all that familiar with the ILP/KT "war".

Apparently it began before I became a member here.

But I have to endorse Arbiters argument above if in fact Lys has been permanently banned. It sets a dangerous precedent. After all, I often include Satyr's arguments in my own posts. Now, I do this because I believe [here and now, moreno] that moral/political objectivism is both delusional and dangerous. And I do whatever I can to expose it in philosophy venues.

So I quote him only to thump him.

But if Lys is only including Satyr's philosophical arguments [and not the huffing and the puffing Stooge bullshit], she should certainly not have been banned for it!

Bring her back please.

[The Golden Turd]

I see no issue with bringing them back (if they are indeed separate). I mean, if we can tolerate someone as messed up as Only Humean, we can tolerate them, right?

I'm obviously am no fan of the guy, but get a sick feeling whenever I hear someone being banned or threatened with a ban, it just doesn't fit with the whole philosophy thing.

[zinnat]

I see no issue with bringing them back (if they are indeed separate). I mean, if we can tolerate someone as messed up as Turd Ferguson, we can tolerate them, right?

I'm obviously am no fan of the guy, but get a sick feeling whenever I hear someone being banned or threatened with a ban, it just doesn't fit with the whole philosophy thing.

Perhaps, you are right.

With love,
Sanjay

[Carleas]

ILP is at war with KT the way a building is at war with a dog that keeps coming around and peeing on it. And also one time the building's head janitor went to the dog's house to ask why it kept peeing on the building. And the dog pee'd all over the head janitor.

The janitors did their best to prevent the dog from peeing all over their humble building, and so they forbid the dog from visiting. But then the dog's friend started coming around with jars full of dog piss. And the janitors are understanding, they let the dog's friend carry the jars around and show them off. But when the friend started pouring jar after jar on the building, it was just too much: what good was forbidding the dog from coming around if he could just pee in a jar, pass it to his friend, and have the friend dump pee all over the building? And so the janitors forbid the friend from coming around.


I hope this allegory has been as satisfying for you as it has been for me.

[James S Saint]

ILP is at war with KT the way a building is at war with a dog that keeps coming around and peeing on it. And also one time the building's head janitor went to the dog's house to ask why it kept peeing on the building. And the dog pee'd all over the head janitor.

The janitors did their best to prevent to dog from peeing all over their humble building, and so they forbid the dog from visiting. But then the dog's friend started coming around with jars full of dog piss. And the janitors are understanding, they let the dog's friend carry the jars around and show them off. But when the friend started pouring jar after jar on the building, it was just too much: what good was forbidding the dog from coming around if he could just pee in a jar, pass it to his friend, and have the friend dump pee all over the building? And so the janitors forbid the friend from coming around.


I hope this allegory has been as satisfying for you as it has been for me.

Although the analogy was a bit apropos, what good comes from such a ban? What has ACTUALLY been improved/gained versus lost?

I say many things that are totally ignored. Why is it so unreasonable to ignore anyone else considered unworthy?

[A Shieldmaiden]

Carleas wrote:

I hope this allegory has been as satisfying for you as it has been for me.

Indeed.

Obviously Carleas is a man who engages in critical thought and reflection, as this shows in his solution for this ongoing problem.

I applaud you.

To the disgruntled, why not pay a visit to Know Thyself, just a click away.

[phoneutria]

The point of the OP though, was that lyssa wasn't bring in here satyr's insults, just his ideas, and carleas has stated that he has no issue with satyr's ideas being presented.

So it's more like the dog's friend is bringing over a lot of dog fur and it's geting stuck all over the furniture and people's clothes and stuff. The head janitor said he has no issue with pet fur, though. Just piss.

[A Shieldmaiden]

Frankly, who gives a shit about those two.

As far as those who bow down to Satyr and Lyssa, let them go to Know thyself and bathe in the delights and appreciation that will be given them.

Kiss, kiss to both of you.


an afterthought with regard to Satyr….

Beyond a certain point, very insistent presentations of one's opinions reflect badly on that person, they make that person look inflexible, self-congratulatory, and opinionated.

[AutSider]

ILP is at war with KT the way a building is at war with a dog that keeps coming around and peeing on it. And also one time the building's head janitor went to the dog's house to ask why it kept peeing on the building. And the dog pee'd all over the head janitor.

The janitors did their best to prevent to dog from peeing all over their humble building, and so they forbid the dog from visiting. But then the dog's friend started coming around with jars full of dog piss. And the janitors are understanding, they let the dog's friend carry the jars around and show them off. But when the friend started pouring jar after jar on the building, it was just too much: what good was forbidding the dog from coming around if he could just pee in a jar, pass it to his friend, and have the friend dump pee all over the building? And so the janitors forbid the friend from coming around.


I hope this allegory has been as satisfying for you as it has been for me.

I am saddened and surprised that the administrator of this forum has responded to my OP with an allegory about dog piss.
I guess it goes to show the extent of his intellectual, and philosophical, sophistication.

The ILP/KT war is not what interests me. What interests me is the unjust banning of another forum member. Once again:

- in your first quote in my OP, you mention that Satyr was not banned because of his ideas, but because of his way of engaging other members, and that Satyr, the human behind the mask is banned.
- but then, in the second quote, you claim that posting the thoughts (ideas) of a banned member is a warnable offense. If it is not a person's thoughts/ideas that gets them banned in the first place, then this second rule does not make sense coupled together with the first one.

The point of the OP though, was that lyssa wasn't bring in here satyr's insults, just his ideas, and carleas has stated that he has no issue with satyr's ideas being presented.

So it's more like the dog's friend is bringing over a lot of dog fur and it's geting stuck all over the furniture and people's clothes and stuff. The head janitor said he has no issue with pet fur, though. Just piss.

Precisely. But let's be honest, everybody in this building leaves their fur all over the place. In fact, this building (forum) is precisely a place for fur (ideas), is it not?
Carleas, I would appreciate if you at least had the intellectual honesty and integrity to admit that the reason you support the banning of Lys, is because of the ideas that are being promoted by her.
In other words, that you are not the all-inclusive forum that you pretend to be, and that not all fur (ideas) is welcome here, but only certain kinds of it.

[Ben JS]

ILP is scum to KT, why do they care to come over here?

There's plenty of places they can preach racism to.

AoC,

Lower your expectations of the people who inhabit these forums.

Little integrity to be found.

[apaosha]

You're giving them too much credit.

Firstly, they can't address the ideas on any level that shows they understand them or that they can rationalize whatever they think they have that challenges them. So it's more a defensive phenomenon than any sort of intelligent, thought-out maneuver. This is not a new thing either, years ago Satyr's thread the Feminization of Man was locked on here and his account renamed to something retarded, mostly to prevent newcomers searching his posts. They won't change and you can't convince them to change. These people are not salvageable, so take what you can from them and move on.
Secondly, there isn't an ILP-KT "war", this would imply that there is something to fight about, or some sort of conflicting interest. ILP is about socializing, not philosophy, so there is nothing to bring conflict, other than the attempt of Lys to inject actual philosophy into the ruminating and fart-sniffing at the water hole... an effort which does promote conflict, of ideas and values and perceptions of reality, and so it must be removed to protect and conserve what has been maintained here.
The most KT members do, here, is try to attract the like-minded who are mislead by this forum's name. This forum is a resource because it is indeed like a well-traveled public square, shitSmeared with piss and skidmarks, dotted with fetid puddles where the pavement is cracked and crumbling, but occasionally allowing the odd interesting encounter with a fellow traveler who, like yourself, takes advantage of the public space without making it his home nor wanting to become too comfortable.

Make friends with who you can and if they respond, invite them to a more suitable venue. But don't invest yourself too much in what you can't fix.

[Zoot Allures]

Moderator: Carleas, there is unrest among the people. They are saying you you have acted unjustly by banishing the Satyr from the kingdom. You must reconsider, my lord.

Carleas: You are advising that I should let it back in? You understand this would be very dangerous. [thinks] Okay, but under one condition. The people will be given what they want, but the creature must be contained. We will keep it in the arena and force it to defend itself in battle. This should appease the people. Do you have a fighter who can do this?

Moderator: Yes, my lord, there are rumors of a man.. a shadowy, mysterious man who walks among us, though we know not where. The legend has it that he is a mercenary and assassin. He is called Zoot Allures. I will seek him out and give him your proposition.



Moderator: Zoot Allures, Carleas has asked me to contact you and make a proposal. There is a Satyr that has been bansished from the kingdom. The people are restless and feel his decision was unjust. To appease the people, Carleas had agreed to let the creature back in, on the condition that it be contained in the arena and forced to fight. We need a fighter to do battle with this creature. Please, Zoot Allures, you must help us.



Zoot Allures: I will help you. Inform the people of Carleas's decision. I will need some time before I am ready...



Sandra: Zoot, my love, you must be careful! They say the creature will create 74,000 word posts of unintelligable nonsense, and then visciously attack you when you refute its arguments.

Zoot: Sandra my dear, what would I do without you? You must trust me, Sandra, and know that I can handle this. The beast is clumsy, obscure, inconsistent, and contradicting with its words. I know how and where to strike the beast. With surgical precision I will defeat it. Worry not, my love.



Zoot: Hear me Carleas! I am ready. The time is now! Open the gates!!

[Carleas]

The ILP/KT war is not what interests me. What interests me is the unjust banning of another forum member.

But this is just to refuse to understand the full set of relevant events that can lead to a moderator action. You're looking at one member and one event. The action was taken in consideration of years of history and thousands of events, multiple accounts whose conduct is relevant, and specific warnings made to this specific poster with regards to her future conduct in consideration of that history.

So to reiterate:

Satyr cannot post here (I will take as a given that his permanent banning is just; I don't take you to be disagreeing with that). His direct participation in this forum is prevented, both by the code (his account is banned) and by the law (new accounts are banned when it is discovered that they are Satyr sock-puppets).

The question presented by Lys is not "can users bring Satyr's ideas to ILP". I will reaffirm that Satyr can be cited, quoted, discussed, applauded, etc. Jar his pee, show it around, have a ball. That's not what Lys was doing. Lys was spamming multiple topics with substantial quotes from Satyr and nothing else. Lys' conduct was simply spamming, it was deserving of a warning without reference to who's text she was dumping on threads unannotated. The fact that she was spamming with the words of a user who cannot post here directly -- that she was effectively abetting Satyr's indirect participation in ILP (i.e. "acting as [his] agent") -- serves to amplify what is already a disruptive behavior in its own right.


This is a problem for law and justice in practice generally. Not only must the law be just, it must appear just, and at times the reality and the appearance of justice are irreconcilable.

In trying to keep the building piss-free, we look like we're just shouting at dogs. Thus is the War of Dog Piss.

[Zoot Allures]

Well so much for that. Hey, either one of you know where I can get a beer around here?

[The Golden Turd]

I remember Satyr being on NietzscheForum.... he was very quiet and polite, Lys was never around. I suppose its because I know there is a couch potato, non-confrontational side to him that allows me to tolerate his presence. I dont like him, made it clear, but can tolerate the spud, he is a real fucked up potato.

This being said.... at a certain point, were going to have to admit thus is CarleasTown, and Carleas has certain says, and his prejudice is the ultimate arbitrator. This is hardly the first time we've urged Detente, but Carleas rules.

On the one hand, its a philosophy forum, and freedom of speech is dear and should be held at a maximum expressibility, especially as this is a pan philosophy forum.... Clashes are expected when literally any two philosophies are presented.

On the flip side, Satyr is incredibly fucked up and I wouldn't trust him to babysit a gold fish.... I've never seen what a goldfish with sexually induced PTSD looks like, and desire never to know. People are attracted to him for the perve factor, and the egoism. As far as actual philosophy goes, he blows at it, and is rather simple to grasp. Does he really have much to contribute? In terms of quality posts, no. You can tell looking at his site.

This being said, even while acknowledging Satyr is a fucked up piece of shit, and likely is under investigation by CSIS for all sorts of disturbing crap (I infer this from his posts and what I've been PMed, no hard evidence yet) and Carleas is most wise, as a DC Lawyer type, to want to stay clear of him.... every time someone mentions Satyr or his ideas on this site it can understandably trigger a desire in Satyr to respond. That's not Satyr circumnavigating the rules, that just being a human being.... you naturally eavesdrop on people talking about you.

Imagine you were Zizek, and a Austrian Economics journal did a cover story on you. Obviously a clash of bias and self interest, but is it wrong for Zizek to have the impulse to write a counter message to the magazine? No.... its understandable. Gets you fired up.

So we have to ask ourselves, while the near general consensus is Satyr should stay, is Satyr a good enough human being to deserve to even post here, and talk to us? Not really, he is a piece of shit, and this forum is Carleas personal charge (he pays for it). Its not how I would do things, but we gotta recognize Carleas as a different person than me or you, and he has a attachment to this site fundamentally different than anyone else here.

If you needed a baby sitter, and Satyr showed up from some Agency, would you honestly leave a child alone with him? I think most of you would say no. He is pure shock value. He is the freakshow. He has remarkably little to say of value, and just wrong. Its opinion, but I think widespread.

Were gonna have to work out some sort if compromise if people here keeps discussing his ideas while banning him. That is just wrong. But we all know Satyr earned his bannings, its not a question of guilt, but of clemency and flexibility.... and meeting half way by both sides.

I think in the future, Carleas might change his mind. Why? Time, change of tactics on both sides. Perhaps court order counseling. Satyr might grow out of doing certain things. Like I said, I've seen him calm and boring on another site. He has it in him to adapt.

I still urge Carleas to show clemency to him, even if not today.

[AutSider]

I do not agree that Satyr's permanent banning is just, BUT, I can see how, from YOUR point of view you might think it is just so it is pointless to try and convince you otherwise, especially since Satyr doesn't seem to be all that interested in posting at ILP other than exposing idiots, which he can do at KT undisturbed, by simply linking to ILP. But compared to the likes of you and Satyr, I am a relatively new member here, so I have no idea what happened here some 5 or 10 years ago.

But just to make it clear, no, I am not here to argue that Satyr should be unbanned or whether his banning is just (would be a pointless argument as I said). I only take for granted that he is banned, but not that his ideas are.

From what I see of Lys's posts, she wasn't spamming. She mostly posted in the rant house in 2 threads (as far as I know, one can post as much as they want in rant, especially in their own threads), and posted a post or two in about 5 non-rant threads, in 2 days. That is far from spamming, that is normal and average posting. You want to know what's spamming?

Spamming is when people like LaughingMan manage to rack up over a thousand posts in 1-3 months. The guy hasn't posted for 7 months now and still has more posts per day than Lys, and he joined after.
Or look what HatingMeIsEasier has done to Science subforum, countless threads about nothing and bullshit that barely deserves Rant House, and yet it was allowed in Science of all places. The guy claimed he had cured cancer and will achieve immortality with numbers, and most of his posts consist of basic fucking arithmetics.
Or mr reasonable, who has 6.5 posts per day and 20,000 posts overall, how many of them are philosophy? Only a few, highlighted by Lys in this post: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=188004&p=2544847#p2544954
So the few posts that guy contributed that ARE philosophy, are nothing but copy-pasted texts from other philosophers. Yet it was allowed, he made entire threads of it, and NOT in rant, mind you. As for the rest of his 20,000 posts, he mostly spammed the offtopic section with his inane daily routines, letting us know what he ate, how much weed he smoked, or how many crackwhores he exploited and convinced to have sex with him.

Now THAT is disturbing.

So compared to all those people who were allowed to post here without being banned, now I am supposed to believe that Lys, who joined here the same month and same year that I did (January, 2014) yet has only 700 posts and 1.6 posts per day, compared to my 2000, is the one spamming when numbers say that there are plenty of other posters here, including MagsJ the moderator and myself, who would much more easily qualify for a spammer than her?

Carleas, either you are innocently ignorant of this (indeed, to the extent that ignorance can be innocent), or you are intentionally ignoring it. There are plenty of other users here who 'spam', according to your standards of what it means. Did iambiguous not make entire threads where he just quotes famous personas and says a line or two, or merely links to a song and/or lyrics and adds nothing else? And you know what, I personally am fine with it, sometimes I even had fun reading it.

So what, does Lys need to quote Satyr and then write "yeah" or "I agree with that" below, to make it look less 'spammish' and add something of her own? That's silly. If Lys and Satyr have the same positions, and she thinks Satyr expressed them in an adequate manner, why should she waste time adding anything?

Turd, I had some respect for you when I first saw you post here. The more I read you, the more you sound like an ordinary turd.

EDIT: Carleas,

Lys' conduct was simply spamming, it was deserving of a warning without reference to who's text she was dumping on threads unannotated

Doesn't Lys always include in quotations who the author of the text is? I mean, she quotes alot, yes, but sometimes she even quotes herself, but I don't see that as spammy or banworthy itself, just her posting style. It is the same at KT, I don't perceive any ill intent at all in that regard.

Can you find me one instance of her quoting a text and not somehow referring whose text she is posting? I didn't manage to find it, myself.