Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a nazi?

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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:32 pm

phyllo wrote:
Not entirely true, I was recently temporarily banned.
A ban which you mocked as a minor inconvenience.


Hey, if people don't like my opinions, beliefs, or values I welcome an open debate. 8)

You pick the spot and subject where I'll hop on board. 8)

Or, are you and others just going to complain calling for my immediate censorship where we need to call a wambulance? 8) :cry: :P

Unlike the rest of you anti-free-speech advocates I always welcome debate, discussion, and conversation. My door and windows are always open being completely transparent to all. 8)
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:41 pm

That's surprising. What is your goal?
To have consistent free speech which treats everyone fairly. Not a free speech which I turn off when it displeases me.
CNN hosting Richard Spencer almost certainly does more harm than me hosting Zero_Sum, even if CNN does fact-checking and talking head rebuttals, and I let whoever feels like wading through ZS's dreck respond. It almost certainly does much more harm. The best fact checking, the best rebuttals, is only going to be 99% effective, and 1% of CNN's viewership is orders of magnitude larger than 100% of ILP's audience.
If it turns out that when presented with context and an honest presentation of the facts, the people want to believe that stuff ... then so be it. The people express the path that they want to follow.

The size of the audience is irrelevant.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:57 pm

"Free speech for me, not for thee." - Phyllo. 8)
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:04 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:"Free speech for me, not for thee." - Phyllo. 8)
What a crock of shit. I just said the complete opposite of that.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:06 pm

phyllo wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:"Free speech for me, not for thee." - Phyllo. 8)
What a crock of shit. I just said the complete opposite of that.


You did? That's great, you have nothing left to complain about then. 8)
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Carleas » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:13 pm

phyllo wrote:The size of the audience is irrelevant.

So then it has nothing to do with platform, right? Audience 0 versus audience 1 million, the difference is whether the audience is "presented with context and an honest presentation of the facts" alongside the bad ideas.

I'm not sure what this means for ILP. I'm no better placed than anyone else to provide context and facts in response to bad ideas here, and any user can provide whatever context they see as appropriate. Is the claim that, so long as I am unwilling to guarantee that context and facts will accompany certain bad ideas, I should ban those ideas?

(Also, to clarify, purely insulting and incendiary racism is prohibited, and I will ban users I see doing it.)
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:18 pm

Of course what makes threads of this sort particularly prone to controversy is that proposing a discussion [or even a debate] about what a member here secretly is can lead to all sorts of...mischief?

One might begin a thread called "is Zero_Sum secretly a homosexual pedophile?" or one called "is Peter Kropotkin secretly a member of the Trump administration?" or "is iambiguous secretly Satyr?"

Merely to raise it as a possibility is to suggest there are at least two sides.

That's why any number of blacks might reject a discussion/debate of whether whites are of superior intelligence, or gays of whether homosexuality is a sick, unnatural perversion.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:27 pm

You did? That's great, you have nothing left to complain about then.
You drive away people who want to have a discussion when you are insulting.

Your rudeness needs to be kept in check.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:36 pm

So then it has nothing to do with platform, right?
You're really stuck on that word 'platform'.
Audience 0 versus audience 1 million, the difference is whether the audience is "presented with context and an honest presentation of the facts" alongside the bad ideas.
Right.
I'm not sure what this means for ILP.
...
Is the claim that, so long as I am unwilling to guarantee that context and facts will accompany certain bad ideas, I should ban those ideas?
You're limited to policing rudeness.

And even that doesn't happen here.
(Also, to clarify, purely insulting and incendiary racism is prohibited, and I will ban users I see doing it.)
And you see it only if someone presses the "report button"?

What does "incendiary racism" mean exactly?
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:45 pm

That's why any number of blacks might reject a discussion/debate of whether whites are of superior intelligence, or gays of whether homosexuality is a sick, unnatural perversion.
These days, the same people who reject those discussions also claim to be in favor of free speech. :lol:
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:47 pm

Here's some interesting stats:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Income_Ranking_by_Religious_Group_-_2000.png

A study in the United States (based on data from 1985–1998), conducted by the sociologist Lisa A. Keister and published in the Social Forces journal, found that adherents of Judaism and Episcopalianism[5] accumulated the most wealth, believers in Catholicism and mainline Protestants were in the middle, while conservative Protestants accumulated the least; in general, people who attend religious services accumulated more wealth than those who do not (taking into account variations of education and other factors).[6] Keister suggested that wealth accumulation is shaped by family processes.[7] According to the study, the median net worth of people believing in Judaism is calculated at 150,890 USD, while the median net worth of conservative Protestants (including Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Scientists) was 26,200 USD. The overall median in the dataset was 48,200 USD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion

Per capita, Jewish Americans are by far and away, the wealthiest Americans.
If you don't think that in and of itself plays a major role in shaping America's foreign and domestic policy, then I don't know what to tell you.
But that's just scratching the surface of their wealth and power, the tip of the Goldberg, err iceberg.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:06 pm

That's why any number of blacks might reject a discussion/debate of whether whites are of superior intelligence, or gays of whether homosexuality is a sick, unnatural perversion.


These days, the same people who reject those discussions also claim to be in favor of free speech. :lol:


That's true. Questions of this sort can become controversial in and of themselves. Chances are though that you are neither black nor homosexual yourself.

After all, once arguments that blacks are inferior to whites or homosexuality is an unnatural perversion do become open to discussion and debate, the slope can become really, really slippery, really, really fast.

Me? Well, even here "I" am no less "fractured and fragmented". I'm not able to come down squarely on one side or the other, to insist that you are either "one of us" or "one of them". There is simply too much complexity embedded in the mix of genes and memes.

All we have is the capacity to agree or disagree regarding what is in fact true. Zero_Sum either is a homosexual pedophile or he is not. But those who dislike him who know that he is not [if in fact he is not] may well succeed in raising the question as legitimate.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:13 pm

Chances are though that you are neither black nor homosexual yourself.
You really believe that this is significant for me. #-o
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Carleas » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:24 pm

phyllo wrote:You're really stuck on that word 'platform'.

The concept, but yes. Deplatforming is a popular topic in the past couple years, it's one I don't fully understand, so I'm interested.

Your initial argument was that we shouldn't give them a platform, which I took to mean something like reach, audience, visibility, etc. Now I read you as saying we shouldn't give them an unfettered ability to make bad arguments without context and fact checking. That's a change, to my mind, and suggests that I was probably misunderstanding the concept from the get go.

phyllo wrote:You're limited to policing rudeness.

At best, yes. But more than that, I'm saying we should limit ourselves to policing rudeness.

phyllo wrote:What does "incendiary racism" mean exactly?

By that I mean, mean-spirited, bad faith, intentionally provocative statements that use taboo subjects to get a rise out of people, rather than to discuss the underlying ideas. Intentionally using racism as a nettle. Racism whose only purpose is to bother or hurt people, to break down discussion, etc. That's incendiary racism. To use your words, it's racism plus rudeness (which is a silly concept in most contexts, but I think it makes sense where, as here, there is an attempt to discuss racist beliefs in good faith).


Gloominary, you left off the best bit:
Another study in the United States, from 2012, stated that 48% of Hindus had a household income of $100,000 or more, and 70% make at least $75,000, which is the highest among all religions in United States.

The Hindus are taking over!

More importantly, consider that the Jewish population is small, and disproportionately located in wealthy coastal cities that have a much higher median incomes and net worths that the average state or city. People concentrated there are likely to appear wealthier on average, but it's a statistical artifact.

Also consider that the amount you're citing isn't anything like "dominant" or the "majority... of [US] wealth".

Finally, consider the explanations for whatever part of the phenomenon remains after the considerations above. Do we posit a vast global conspiracy of Hindus plotting to take over the US? No, of course we don't. Why the difference?
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:33 pm

Controlling a population does not necessarily involve earning the highest median income. Controlling its way of perceiving, how it identifies, how it thinks, through the media, through Hollywood, through pop-culture, can be effective.

Race does not implies violence, no more than believing ni species implies a genocide on other species.
Without race evolution Theory does not work.
It is a burden for those that reject intermediate stages in evolutionary development to explain how evolution only applies to species other than the homo sapient, how evolution and natural selection only applies to traits from the neck down, and how species evolve without gradual separation due to genetic isolation over long periods of time, affecting both mental and physical potentials, and why appearances only matter in all cases except when it comes to human nature.

Being kind and up to date with popular sentiments, and altruistic, is one thing...being intentionally obtuse to not deal with uncomfortable facts about life, is hypocritical.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:34 pm

Genetically, Jews have much more in common with each other than historically neighboring populations (Europeans, North Africans and West Asians):

The Y chromosome of most Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews contains mutations that are common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population, according to a study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome by Michael Hammer, Harry Ostrer and others, published in 2000.[13] According to Hammer et al. this suggests that the paternal lineages of Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East.
Hammer et al. add that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors." In addition, the authors have found that the "Jewish cluster was interspersed with the Palestinian and Syrian populations, whereas the other Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations (Saudi Arabians, Lebanese, and Druze) closely surrounded it. Of the Jewish populations in this cluster, the Ashkenazim were closest to South European populations (specifically the Greeks) and also to the Turks." The study estimated that Ashkenazi Jews are descended on their paternal side from a core population of approximately 20,000 Jews that migrated from Italy into the rest of Europe over the course of the first millennium, and that "All European Jews seem connected on the order of fourth or fifth cousins."[13]
The estimated cumulative total male genetic admixture amongst Ashkenazim was, according to Hammer et al., "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%. This could be the result, for example, of "as little as 0.5% per generation, over an estimated 80 generations", according to Hammer et al. Such figures indicated that there had been a "relatively minor contribution" to Ashkenazi paternal lineages by converts to Judaism and non-Jews. These figures, however, were based on a limited range of paternal haplogroups assumed to have originated in Europe. When potentially European haplogroups were included in the analysis, the estimated admixture increased to 23 per cent (±7%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Y-DNA_of_Ashkenazi_Jews

"Who is a Jew?" (Hebrew: מיהו יהודי pronounced [ˈmihu jehuˈdi]) is a basic question about Jewish identity and considerations of Jewish self-identification. The question explores ideas about Jewish personhood, which have cultural, ethnic, religious, political, genealogical, and personal dimensions. Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism follow Jewish law (Halakha), deeming a person to be Jewish if their mother is Jewish or they underwent a halakhic conversion. Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism accept both matrilineal and patrilineal descent. Karaite Judaism predominantly follows patrilineal descent.
Jewish identity is also commonly defined through ethnicity. Opinion polls have suggested that the majority of Jews see being Jewish as predominantly a matter of ancestry and culture, rather than religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

Jews aren't just a religion, they're an ethnicity and insofar as it exists, a race, and most of them identify as such.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:44 pm

Chances are though that you are neither black nor homosexual yourself.


You really believe that this is significant for me. #-o


I'm merely suggesting that if you were a black homosexual and came across a thread here entitled, "Discussion: blacks lack the intelligence of whites", or "Discussion: homosexuals are unnatural perverts", you might feel more chagrin that this is open to discussion than if you were not black or gay.

You know, given how complex reactions to questions like this can become.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:45 pm

Your initial argument was that we shouldn't give them a platform, which I took to mean something like reach, audience, visibility, etc.
No it wasn't.

My first point was that this is your forum so the decision to let anyone post is completely within your control. You can't pass the buck on to someone else.
Now I read you as saying we shouldn't give them an unfettered ability to make bad arguments without context and fact checking.
We? You.

Without context and fact checking, the "discussions" are just endless unsupported claims. Nobody is getting at the truth of the matter here.

The chances of getting at the truth when it is presented on CNN, with context and fact checking, are much better.
At best, yes. But more than that, I'm saying we should limit ourselves to policing rudeness.
Do you think that your are policing rudeness???
By that I mean, mean-spirited, bad faith, intentionally provocative statements that use taboo subjects to get a rise out of people, rather than to discuss the underlying ideas. Intentionally using racism as a nettle. Racism whose only purpose is to bother or hurt people, to break down discussion, etc. That's incendiary racism.
That probably describes a lot of posts by Zero and others.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:47 pm

I'm merely suggesting that if you were a black homosexual and came across a thread here entitled, "Discussion: blacks lack the intelligence of whites", or "Discussion: homosexuals are unnatural perverts", you might feel more chagrin that this is open to discussion than if you were not black or gay.
How little you understand me. :|
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:48 pm

I belong to the elite victim-class. I'm a black paraplegic obese single mother.
I am lord of the victims.

My advantage is that I can make any comment, using any language, and will not be reprimanded.
The only reason Carleas sends me board warnings is because he didn't know of my nature.
But now he does.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Carleas » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:23 pm

phyllo wrote:We? You.

If this were so, this conversation would be over. The buck stops with me, but I'm sensitive to the values and goals of the community, and I'm open to persuasion. We are discussing what we should do. I but pull the levers.

phyllo wrote:Without context and fact checking, the "discussions" are just endless unsupported claims. Nobody is getting at the truth of the matter here.

Sure, but... so what? If the threads need fact checking and context, fact check them and add context. We're none of us professionals, so maybe CNN is the wrong thing to compare ourselves to, but we can link to Wikipedia, and that seems to be the level of fact checking it takes (see this very thread).

If you don't feel like it, then don't.

If the threads are of the "incendiary racism" variety, report them and I'll warn/ban people.

phyllo wrote:That probably describes a lot of posts by Zero and others.

Yes, and Zero is on a one-week ban because of it.


Gloominary wrote:Jews aren't just a religion, they're an ethnicity and insofar as it exists, a race, and most of them identify as such.

c.f. Aegean, who definitely isn't a racist.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:33 pm

Arabs are Semites, so are Berbers.

But Judaism did emerge within specific tribes, ergo the narrative about the 12 tribes, with a 13th African one.
I've said elsewhere, memes are gene specific, in their origins.
Part of the Jewish survival strategy is living parasitically, and so merging with the target host is essential for their strategy to work. So they are matrilineal because the mother is sure of her children's origins, and a male is not.
They inherit their Jewishness from the mother, allowing them to mix the host's genes into their own so as to hide and to appropriate, remaining always distinct and identifying only with their own.

Many Jews admit this.
They play with vagueness so as to remain obscure.
Sometimes they claim to be a religion, other times that they are a race.
Their marriage practices has produced inbreeding - producing distinct physical characteristics and psychological attitudes - neurosis is one example.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:40 pm

phyllo wrote:
Without context and fact checking, the "discussions" are just endless unsupported claims. Nobody is getting at the truth of the matter here.


Sure, but... so what?
A few posts ago, there was some important work going on here:
" For one thing, people do sometimes change their mind in response to reason. But more importantly, society needs to make explicit the reasons why bad ideas are wrong. If we can't discuss them, if no one can defend them, then we won't discover the rebuttals, and our noble beliefs will be fragile and vulnerable to simple questioning. The discussion isn't only about convincing the other people in the discussion, it's about crystallizing our own ideas, which, once explicit, can be shared like antibodies."

Now it's "so what?"
If the threads need fact checking and context, fact check them and add context.
I have tried, but I found that those guys prefer to live in their own cocoons.

I now generally avoid those threads.
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:46 pm

Phyllo,

I read every post on ILP. Who are you on your high horse? Telling a person like me that I’m on mine?
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Re: Discussion: is Carleas secretly a white supremacist a na

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:48 pm

Although I am not here to convince those too far gone to be convinced by anything....I only mention Tucker Carlson's recent report on Singer's practices.
Parasitism. He would not do this to Israeli towns, because he identifies with the people there.

Their history is well known. Expelled from hundreds of places….dabbling in occultism to exploit human feebleness, like Gypsies - another tribe that practices parasitical survival strategies.
Google what the Romans, and other famous minds, had to say about them.
They can't all be jealous and bigots.
Now I'm done with its subject.
If people cannot even see or admit who dominates US political and cultural discourse, then nothing I can say will change their minds.
I wont even try. It would be a waste of my time.
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