On Moderation

[Carleas]

MagsJ has been removed from ILP staff. She's been an active part of ILP for over a decade, and I am sincerely grateful to her for what she did and tried to do for the community. Recent events brought differences in moderation philosophy and style between Mags and I to a head, but those differences have existed for a long time and they were manageable. But the internet has changed, and ILP has changed, and those changes have introduced sufficient new tension to make the differences unworkable. Our differences are as much about ends as means, and to that extent her removal is not a comment on her abilities or her commitment to the site.

I open this thread for any thoughts on this decision, or on moderation generally. To Mags' credit, this is a major change for the site, and it requires thoughtful self-reflection. I also invite Mags to give her side, if she chooses; she isn't banned or otherwise limited, she's a full member and she's free to take me to task for a decision I can only assume she disagrees with. And if she's forgiving enough to remain a part of our community, I hope she does.

[MagsJ]

I think the petty belligerence, in recent months, was becoming an issue for me.. I’ve never heard that much bemoaning (from some here) in all my life, and it was becoming ridiculous and therefore tiresome, and handling those situations with wit was met with further belligerence.
I also think that too many personal issues were brought to the ILP table, and accommodation for these expected, and met with resentment when not.

This now does mean, that I have the choice to ignore the belligerent and those with issues, and interact with those that I have been happily doing so with.

See you on the boards..

[promethean75]

god i love this stuff. it's so overly-dramatic and formal. i feel like we should conduct a ceremony for the revocation of mags's office as moderator and ask her to say a few honorable last words before she exists the building as everyone stands watching in silence. we need a soundtrack, too.

[MagsJ]

Lol.. I’m enjoying my first day as a civilian again, Prom, and I appreciate Carleas’ formal farewell.. where’s my leaving card though. lol

The recent synopses of me have been very creative.. to say the least, but are way way off.. in another universe perhaps, but they did amuse me so.

[Carleas]

god i love this stuff. it's so overly-dramatic and formal.

Formality is a form of costly signaling. Without the benefit of in-person cues, it's hard to convincingly convey sincerity in written text. Formality is hard to write, and it requires a bit of prostration, so writing a formal and prostrating notice conveys sincere respect in a way that can't really be faked because it costs in time and social capital.

And for the real humans involved, there are real emotional consequences. I won't speak for Mags, but for me this was a hard decision that I lost sleep over. It feels overly dramatic from the outside, but from the inside it feels appropriately dramatic.

[phyllo]

Mags' work ethic and dedication are admirable. She is responsible and responsive. Her efforts made the site better.

Over the years, I have seen her unfairly criticized and attacked. It's not surprising that the situation got the better of her. That she managed to keep her composure in the past, shows her toughness.

Thank you for everything that you have done.

[Ecmandu]

I personally feel guilty. If I could have worded it better; maybe; the sex we always have regret, maybe she'd still have moderator status.

I'll be a moderator for you carleas, I take revolutionary and hard topics very well.

I'm not about censorship in the way MagsJ was.,,.
Even iamgbiuous

[iambiguous]

Mags' work ethic and dedication are admirable. She is responsible and responsive. Her efforts made the site better.

Over the years, I have seen her unfairly criticized and attacked. It's not surprising that the situation got the better of her. That she managed to keep her composure in the past, shows her toughness.

Thank you for everything that you have done.

Basically, I have to concur with this. She has been attacked over and over again. And I have never really understood the basis of it. Other than that some members just didn't like her. And now with all the other moderators gone [aside from Dan?] moderation here at ILP is all the more problematic.

And, let's face it, with some that I call the Kids here, almost anyone's patience would be tried.

[Ecmandu]

Mags' work ethic and dedication are admirable. She is responsible and responsive. Her efforts made the site better.

Over the years, I have seen her unfairly criticized and attacked. It's not surprising that the situation got the better of her. That she managed to keep her composure in the past, shows her toughness.

Thank you for everything that you have done.

Basically, I have to concur with this. She has been attacked over and over again. And I have never really understood the basis of it. Other than that some members just didn't like her. And now with all the other moderators gone [aside from Dan?] moderation here at ILP is all the more problematic.

And, let's face it, with some that I call the Kids here, almost anyone's patience would be tried.

Like I stated: I feel guilty.

[iambiguous]

Like I stated: I feel guilty.

As well you should, Kid.

[Meno_]

My feelings stay the same moderation or not, she is a gifted and capable thinker, in any case, moderator or ILP member. Her guidance can be relied upon in any capacity. I think You're guilt Ecmandu is not necessary, I don't think it is healthy for any frame of mind.

[Arcturus Descending]

I think the petty belligerence, in recent months, was becoming an issue for me.. I’ve never heard that much bemoaning (from some here) in all my life, and it was becoming ridiculous and therefore tiresome, and handling those situations with wit was met with further belligerence.
I also think that too many personal issues were brought to the ILP table, and accommodation for these expected, and met with resentment when not.

This now does mean, that I have the choice to ignore the belligerent and those with issues, and interact with those that I have been happily doing so with.

See you on the boards..

I am really happy for you MagsJ. Enjoy your freedom. Do not allow anyone to take it away from you or to pull you back into the insanity of it all...unless that is what you would want ~ but why would you, why would anyone ? Maybe wear a rubber band for awhile around your finger to remind yourself to stay out of your own way and especially that of another unless it is what you truly do not want. But perhaps the dynamics of thought and feeling change once you are not moderating anymore.

Now you can b r e a t h e!



Here's to you, sassy lass.

[MagsJ]

Maybe wear a rubber band for awhile around your finger to remind yourself to stay out of your own way and especially that of another unless it is what you truly do not want.

I don’t understand about having to stay out of my own way? but I will not be interacting with the belligerents and short-sighted here.. both, harmful qualities to others’ being. A case of too much J and not enough P being exercised, I’d say.

My brother, and a few of my nephews (not all), become belligerent towards me when I use my witty retorts, when they overstep my mark, but they have learned to not do so What may work on the females in their lives, is non-transferable to me.. I dare say that we have cases of that going on here.

[Silhouette]

This is good news.

Let us see now how the forum completely fails to change in the slightest as a result.

On a general level, the presence of mods would seem to be valuable only beyond a certain number of contributors and newcomers. These numbers both appear to be currently low, and everyone's familiarity with everyone else seems to be enough to know what to expect, and to know how to deal with everyone else. Moderation from anyone in the vast majority of matters would appear to be unnecessary, except perhaps in the passive control of unwelcome newcomers - who appear to be few. I might be wrong on how much of a nuisance newcomers continue to be, as I have no involvement in dealing with them, but I know I'm not wrong with regard to regulars. Interference at that level highlights more than ever the difference between a busy body and someone who seeks only to maintain the forum at a simple minimal level.

It might be sad to admit the gradual decline of a forum over many years, but from previous conversation I know Carleas is under no delusions about how things have changed over the years. Most of the moderators haven't been seen in a long time as it is, and the fact that any at all remain so long after any call to duty seems more like a flaw in their character to need to hold onto some semblence of authority - especially since most of their posts seem to be either being the only contributer to a 5 year old thread that was started to be nice to her, or failing to honestly acknowledge her failures in being effectual at moderating in others. Having an account apparently older than anyone else here, perhaps it's coincidence that I've never seen philosophical content from this person, but I have absolutely no idea why they were appointed in the first place in any possible respect - though as ever I'm always looking for evidence to prove my observations and summations wrong. It's just been hard to remotely respect someone who lacks every expected trait from a philosophy moderator whatsoever.

Just my opinion, obviously, but if not the internet - where else better to express it?
Only_Humean and Carleas have been easy to respect. Flannel Jesus seemed more like a joker to me from what I remember, and Dan comes across simple and straight forward - well intentioned at least, I'm on the fence. Uccisore seemed hard at the time but I'd accept him if he were still here even though I seem to remember we disagreed on plenty. Faust was easy to accept, though I don't remember him being an actual moderator.

I neither expect my honesty, nor my "charged" attitude to merit me such a position myself, and I don't want to make "work" out of that which I gain pleasure, despite the fact that I'd be good at it. So judge the taste of this response however you will, I have no ulterior motive here. If I hurt any feelings, I've judged it to be for the best.

[MagsJ]

“If I hurt any feelings...”

Who’s feelings? is that an assumption I read.. why yes, it is.

Do peoples’ feelings get hurt over such things? really? I guess this person’s does.. if their expressing a sentiment that they don’t know if another feels. I feel over things.. sure, but not this.. as why would someone feel hurt over a situation with deliberate causation to exact an intentional outcome, and I don’t mean this person.

Deeming someone not philosophical is on par with deeming someone a troll.. said simply because they do not agree with you, or don’t share the same mindset as you. I deal in real results, not strangers’ words on a screen.. we are simply in and from different worlds and backgrounds, but the smart would factor this in and adjust accordingly, but most don’t, because most aren’t smart.

My time here was up.. I had been considering this for a few months now, but I did and do intend to post as a member.. I am intrigued to see how the site will evolve.

[phyllo]

I don't think that you should bother engaging in this.

[MagsJ]

I don't think that you should bother engaging in this.

I will cease when I think that time has arrived Phyllo.. I am not you, I am not feeling what you are feeling about my engagement here.. this is not an obituary, where I can’t reply to others’ sentiments.

But there are some I won’t reply to or engage with, ok..

[Ecmandu]

I offered moderation because I assumed carleas might be overwhelmed, not because I'd make anyone's shortlist

I'm rough around the edges.

My greatest asset as a potential moderator is my extreme exposure to the truly bizarre...

It gives me more capacity to delve into the muck

That said, politics ruins a lot

I actually wish MagsJ well, and I know she reciprocates.

[phyllo]

I don't think that you should bother engaging in this.

I will cease when I think that time has arrived Phyllo.. I am not you, I am not feeling what you are feeling about my engagement here.. this is not an obituary, where I can’t reply to others’ sentiments.

But there are some I won’t reply to or engage with, ok..

Sure. It's completely up to you.

Haterz are going to hate.

But what are you getting out of it?

[MagsJ]

Sure. It's completely up to you.

Haterz are going to hate.

But what are you getting out of it?

..making the haterz recognise, recog recognise

I have no other intention, other than that, but it’s not really an intentional intention.. things that need to be said, should never be left unsaid, or time soon makes it obsolete and therefore moot.

[phyllo]

Sure. It's completely up to you.

Haterz are going to hate.

But what are you getting out of it?

..making the haterz recognise, recog recognise

I have no other intention, other than that, but it’s not really an intentional intention.. things that need to be said, should never be left unsaid, or time soon makes it obsolete and therefore moot.

If it makes you feel good to let it out, to vent, to let them know what you think ...

Then do it.

Don't expect to change their minds. They won't necessarily recognize.

[MagsJ]

If it makes you feel good to let it out, to vent, to let them know what you think ...

Then do it.

Don't expect to change their minds. They won't necessarily recognize.

It’s expressing what I think, but definitely not venting.. I don’t do irked, which in turn irks others.

It’s not so much them recognising, as it is them realising.. delusions should not be gained at another’s expense, otherwise they become reality, and that’s not good for humanity. I don’t deal in pretences, that suit the other/the others ego, no. Family, friends, strangers.. no.

[Mowk]

Carleas, I sort of find myself in disagreement with your decision. Mags is the only Moderator that has ever issued me a warning and I did deserved it. My part in it was not to get even but to act as a mirror for self reflection. I was aware of what I was doing. Crafted it willingly. I can admit that.

And I agree with your decision on the grounds that she didn't seem capable of learning from her mistakes as a moderator. I have forgiven her already, and would like to apologize for my behavior. I never could totally loose respect for anyone, but I am a good actor, I can read the lines, play the part and be somewhat convincing. I am even capable of authoring a few zingers myself.

From my heart Mags. I apologize for my behavior. I deserved the warning I earned. If I misinterpreted your bringing my wife up in retort it was the trigger that made me feel defensive. You didn't hurt my feelings, you attempted to use my wife against me. But it was the member Mags that did this, and she was not sensitive enough to realize the mistake in it. The member Mags called me flat out vile and miserable, and when I attempted to elude to this as a distortion in the experiential continuum, that I can be, but it is not the sum total of my being she made every effort to turn that against me as well.

I don't regret it, she gave me what I was asking for, and I returned the favor. I didn't shirk the experiences off with humor. As she suggested I focused it back on myself as means of self introspection, and ask, do I really know myself as well as I claim? Unfortunately some times the answer is no, and you guess again.

Fortunately no ones ability to guess again was harmed in the making of this chapter in the saga.

Whether I agree or disagree with your decision it is yours to make and I respect that it was not an easy one. I was a moderator on a forum and I made mistakes, the team of moderators attempted to assure me that I was not a bad moderator. It was a friend I had to moderate, I should have waited for another moderator to make the call. That was sort of the end of that relationship and I felt guilty it was me that dropped the hammer. I didn't want anyone to think I was playing favorites. In the end the Administrator died unexpectedly, without any plans for the forums continuation. His family shut down the servers and the forum disbanded.

Once in that role was enough. It teaches you more about yourself then sometimes you are willing to admit or can assimilate.

[Silhouette]

Deeming someone not philosophical is on par with deeming someone a troll..

No

"Troll" could potentially imply competence, though overridden by ill will.
You come across as the opposite of this, though even when I try to honestly find something positive to say about you such as good will, it's marred by a sense of narcissistic pride that I seem to pick up from everything you say - which is why I expect you to be hurt by my opinion, but also why I expect you to deny and repress this, and likely to resist the idea with passive aggression. It's not in the nature of the weak to be honest with themselves, but as I'll repeat it's only the impression I get and I'm always open to evidence to the contrary. No hate whatsoever - I don't waste my time with such things, just a chronic sense of irritation that I'd prefer to be dispelled through the appropriate parties being honest with themselves even if it's hard, and learning and growing as a result - especially if it's me, but also if I can do the favour for others because I like to leave things in a better state than I found them.

said simply because they do not agree with you, or don’t share the same mindset as you. I deal in real results, not strangers’ words on a screen.. we are simply in and from different worlds and backgrounds, but the smart would factor this in and adjust accordingly, but most don’t, because most aren’t smart.

There are plenty of people who show philosophical competence who I don't agree with. The fact that I don't agree with you is not least because you don't show neither philosophical competence nor competence at moderation, the agreement bit is irrelevant to me for the most part - it's how you get there that counts. Philosophical argument isn't just opinion and asking questions if we're lucky, it's far greater than that. "Dealing in real results" has obvious value since the real is an ultimate test of whether something is viable, but dealing only with what's viable now doesn't show any wisdom concerning what could be. Most people simply accept how things are and struggle with their lot in the terms they've ended up with, and others might get lost in what could be through a refusal of how things currently are - one of them was instrumental in you being rightly demoted. I try to explore the possibility of bringing the real and the potential together through innovative avenues that are backed by sufficiently strong logic, which I enjoy discussing. Your sentiment that the smart adjust to different worlds and backgrounds is hardly wrong, it reminds me of iambiguous, but the smart also have the ability to explore the potential beyond merely accepting current realities. Funnily enough, this ability would help you at moderating because you'd be more familiar and capable dealing with those from a different world and background.

I doubt this advice will go anywhere, ego is a barrier for the unphilosophical.

[phyllo]

You don't have to be a great hockey player to be a good or great hockey referee.

Was she a good or bad moderator?

But maybe that's irrelevant because some people either don't want to be personally moderated or to have the forum moderated. I suspect that's the reason for a lot of the hostility aimed at her.